1. If you were already a member of the 52nd Street Forum, your member profile has been moved over to our new forum here. You can log in using your original username or your forum email address, and password. If you do not remember your password, there is a link in the login form to reset your password; we cannot retrieve passwords, as they are stored encrypted. If all else fails, go to the bottom of this page and choose the Contact link to get in touch, and we'll get you sorted. Thanks for visiting, and enjoy the new forum!
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Thank you for visiting It's Just Talk! To enjoy all of the features of our forum (and remove this message), please register for complete access. To prevent spam, our staff manually activates all new accounts; you will receive an email notice when your account is activated. Please enter the VIP code 6P7D5WQ4 when requested during registration. Thank you!
    Dismiss Notice
  3. We use the "responsive" layout of XenForo, which is cross-platform compatible and requires no additional apps to access our site via mobile, including smartphones and tablets.
    Dismiss Notice

BFT 107

Discussion in 'General Jazz Discussions' started by Dinosaur, Nov 11, 2014.

  1. Re track #11, Don Ellis' Electric Bath as both Bill and Ken said to us.

    If I had one or two months more I would have got this one rightly. :sad:
    I just bought Electric Bath a couple of years ago ... but didn't listened to it until now ... though it is in fact (since some months ago) in my next-ones-to-listen-to schedule list, amidst dozens of albums/pieces of classical, jazz and brazilian music to be listened or relistened to.
    One of the main reasons why I ordered Electric Bath from Amazon was my willing fo complete a list of CDs from an article I found once in the web, sort of "essential recordings" (anyway a good survey) concerning "Improvisation and Orchestra" in north-american music.
    For those interested, here is the complete list:
    1) The Birth Of The Third Stream (containing both Music For Brass by The Brass Ensemble Of The Jazz and Classical Music Society (Gunther Schuller, John Lewis and others) and Modern Jazz Concert, by Gunther Schuller – George Russell Orchestras;
    2) Michael Tilson Thomas New World Symphony: New World Jazz, bringing Gershwin's Rhapsody In Blue and pieces from Antheill, Stravinsky's (Ebony Concerto), Bernstein (Prelude, Fugue and Riffs), John Adams, Milhaud, Hindemith and David Raksin;
    3) Duke Ellington: The Symphonic Ellington (1963 recordings joining Duke's Orchestra with european symphonic orchestras)
    4) Mary Lou Williams: The Zodiac Suite (the orchestral version at Carnegie Hall), from which I used a track in a past BFT (2008 March)
    5) Stan Kenton: City Of Glass
    6) Tito Puente: Dance Mania
    7) The Individualism Of Gil Evans
    8 ) Charles Mingus Epitaph (as recreated bt Gunther Schuller in a 1989 recording)
    9) Max Roach: It’s Time
    10) Sun Ra: Heliocentric Worlds Volume 1
    11) Ornette Coleman: Skies of America
    12) Don Ellis: Electric Bath
    13) McCoy Tyner: Fly With The Wind
    14) Anthony Braxton: Creative Orchestra Music 1976
    15) George Russell: African Game
    16) Muhal Richard Abrams: Hearinga Suite (which I also used in that same 2008 BFT)
    17) The Vanguard Jazz Orchestra: Thad Jones Legacy
    18 ) The Music of Meyer Kupferman
    19) Yusef Lateef: The African-American Epic Suite
    20) Jon Jang: Tiananmen
    21) Wynton Marsalis: Jump, Start and Jazz
    22) Lawrence Butch Morris: Conduction 11 - Where Music Goes
    23) James Emery: Transformations
    24) Carla Bley: Looking For America
    25) John Cage: The Piano Concertos, Fourteen

    The article is at http://www.americancomposers.org/improvise/oteri_cdprimer.htm
     
  2. Dinosaur

    Dinosaur Member

    Location:
    Western Australia
    Thanks Luis for your usual thoughtful replies. I had Electric Bath on plastic and sadly that went when we downsized our home. Alone is one of the quieter tracks. It was Loussier on #10.

    I just need Ron and Doctor Bob then I will put up the answers. My clue for David re #6 has worked to some extent for you.

    Regards

    Dino
     
  3. Bluetrain

    Bluetrain Active Member

    Location:
    jacksonville, fl
    Dino, I'm leaving for a trip next week and probably won't be here when you reveal. But here are some thoughts on tracks that you confirmed or I think are probably on mark from other answers...

    I couldn't think of an 'early 50s' (or 1947, as Luis Antonio confirmed) pianist with a right hand that could rival Oscar's? DUH. Bud's right hand was monstrous. A great, great track I never heard before. thanks! BTW. I put a Monk track of Nice Work... on a BFT long before you joined the game. The contrast between two of the great bop pianist's takes on the tune is amazing.

    T and Shirley Scott sounds right to me. I knew they were married, but they don't play together on any of the albums I have. She never impressed me, but T could blow.

    It's Wes, not Benson? I'm good with that. But i didn't know Sebesky/CTI did stuff before Wes died in '68. I associate them with the early 70s (Hubbard, Grover). So i learned something. Unlike some purists, I like some CTI stuff, but I'll stick with Wes' earlier stuff like Incredible Jazz Guitar. Still, I enjoyed this track.

    I mentioned Claude Bolling - I have two of his albums including the famous one with Jean Pierre Rampal, but I also have a Loussier CD (maybe this one?) and thought about mentioning him. Anyone who likes both jazz and classical music should check out at least one of their albums. Still interested in who the bassist is. Nice choice.

    Yes, its Harry Edison. I have him on many albums and always loved him (Edison's Lights being a favorite). Asleep on the switch again here. I've heard of Spike Robinson, but never heard him play. Nice selection.

    I saved some face by knowing it was the MJQ. I heard a album of them with Rollins many years ago, but I don't think it was a live album. But this was worse than not recognizing Turrentine.

    That's all for now except I'll do a little preaching (uh-oh) in my next post. If I'm not back when you reveal, I'll later check for the final answers. Pepper Adams seems like a solid guess to me, and who is the trumpeter on track 2? Great music, learned some new things, and jogged some dormant brain cells. Can't ask for more in a BFT.
     
  4. Bluetrain

    Bluetrain Active Member

    Location:
    jacksonville, fl
    OK, here comes the preaching; run for cover :mrgreen: If you've been on the forum a long, long time, you've heard this from me before. And with Bill and Bob, I know I'm preaching to the choir. But about Don Ellis... :D

    I read the article Luis Antonio posted, and I'd agree that Electric Bath is certainly the best of Don's early studio albums (and probably the best of all of his studio albums), but I've always been partial to his live albums. As far as I'm concerned, Tears of Joy (1971, after Electric Bath) was the 'high tide' of Don's albums - although some very good albums followed.

    To his fans, Don's explorations on many fronts are legendary. Bill already mentioned his almost constant use of very odd time signatures, probably his most notable invention. But there is also his use of electronics (listen to to his live "At the Fillmore") although I wasn't sad when he abandoned them. He was into "world music" before it was popular, incorporating eastern European (with the help of the great Bulgarian pianist Milcho Leviev) and music from India. he pioneered the concept of quarter-toned trumpet (obvious on the solo on the track Dino selected), and, maybe my favorite, the use of a string section as an integral part of the "orchestra" (definitely NOT CTI background strings) . :cool:.

    So, to my mind, all of these features, sans the jettisoned electronic components, came together exquisitely on Tears of Joy. Below is a link to "Strawberry Soup," Don's magnum opus, as far as I'm concerned. Its basically the "kitchen sink" of modern music exploration; a classical cello/ woodwind section opening, an avant garde trombone solo, straight ahead jazz band brass and woodwind sections playing (but in 9, not 4), a blistering odd-meter piano solo by Leviev, (and check out the performance of Leviev's cool Bulgarian Bulge on the the same album), a three-drummer solo exchange (one of them is Don), and the interplay between the brass, woodwind and string sections throughout. And I'd argue it includes Don's most profound trumpet solo. Its finalized by a somewhat corny, but unique "stripper theme" (Don said something like "how else was I going to end this?)" What do you think, David Rose? :) That only scratches the surface, I love how the 'simple' opening theme keeps getting referenced in various interpretations and especially how he goes from the calm to the frenzy, and then drops it back to the clam and then rebuilds the excitement. Masterful big band arranging, IMO.

    I'm not sure why Luis's author picked Electric Bath over Tears of Joy as the Ellis album to have, but here is 17 1/2 minutes of Strawberry Soup. Is it genius or over-exaggerated hooey? Every man to his tastes...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjR4_i0Furo
     
  5. Ken

    I think that the article's author didn't have the intention to elect the best recordings of orchestra-with-improvisation music or the best recording of each musician/ensemble. (Even though the items included are, of course, of his special predilection). By no means "The Symphonic Ellington" can be singled out as "the best" recording within Duke's extensive discography. On the orher side, take Stan Kenton, for instance. Regardless of what be one's "favourite Kenton album", that Kenton/Graettinger collaboration is with no doubt very representative on that subject matter.
    It's not also a list of "best" or "more representative" jazz orchestras recordings, since there is no Fletcher Henderson, Benny Goodman, Count Basie, Woody Herman, Thad Jones / Mel Lewis (the real thing, not the Vanguard), Bob Brookmeyer, Charlie Haden's LMO, Toshiko Akiyoshi, Maria Schneider etc etc. It is not even a "jazz list" at all, because, though mostly grounded on jazz recordings and jazz musicians, it presents items that aren't not "jazz" (Tilson Thomas, Kupferman, Cage). And it is specifically north-american, since there's no european music, very rich on that matter (Vienna Art Orchestra, many german orchestras etc).

    In his own words, the author pretended to present a "beginning for listeners curious about the ways the concepts of improvisation and orchestra, in its broadest definition, can successfully come together." I would add - showing a broad spectrum as large as possible from Paul Whiteman to John Cage.
     
  6. Dinosaur

    Dinosaur Member

    Location:
    Western Australia
    Ken, It's 7.30 am not the hour of the day to listen to 17 minutes of Don Ellis :confused: I will get around to it.

    #2 has stumped all so far so I will give the answer

    # 2 " I Don't give a Damn Blues" from "Im.pro.vise Never before seen." Sean Jones.(tpt) Orrin Evans (pno) Luques Curtis (bs) Obed Calvaire (dms)

    These days I buy tracks from I tunes rather than get a whole album. I really liked this track, and I'll probably get the whole album. All the names are new to me and it's a fairly recent recording'

    Dino
     
  7. Bluetrain

    Bluetrain Active Member

    Location:
    jacksonville, fl
    All that is fine with me. I guess my main point was, with adding a string section (and not just as background music) Tears of Joy came far closer to an 'orchestra' than did Electric Bath. Maybe its not important, but that's all I could add that I thought helped this dying forum from breathing its last breath.
     
  8. Bluetrain

    Bluetrain Active Member

    Location:
    jacksonville, fl
    Sean Jones? no kidding. I was checking him out on youtube over a year ago, He is hot, but I didn't hear the licks I associate with old 40's jazz/blues players I heard in this playing. I'm pretty sure Ronald introduced me to Jones.

    If you listen to Strawberry Soup let me know what you think. There are "outside" parts you might not enjoy, but you may like some of the others.
     
  9. That interests me. Unfortunately, I don't have Tears of Joy... until now. Thanks for the reference, Ken.
     
  10. Also new to me. If I heard about him before, didn't paid attention. This is a great track. I can listen to the whole album , Im-pro-vise Never Before Seen", at Spotify. (By the way, having a signature of services as Spotify or Deezer is rewarding).
     
  11. Bluetrain

    Bluetrain Active Member

    Location:
    jacksonville, fl
    You got Tears of Joy TODAY on my say so? I'm extremely flattered! For kicks on the orchestral approach, try listening just to the percussion section (drums, congas, etc,) throughout Strawberry Soup. I never heard that in a big band before 1971, and I don't recall hearing it since. The subdivisions of 9 are meticulous and churn on and on. Hope you enjoy.
     
  12. Dinosaur

    Dinosaur Member

    Location:
    Western Australia
    Ken
    I can't answer that, having listened to the track. It was a bit like the "curate's egg", good in parts. I liked the reference to "Jesu Joy of Man 's desiring" in the introductory section with the cello. It lost me a bit around the 6 minute mark, then it started to swing, I liked the pizzicato playing on the cello around the 7.50 mark. then back to swinging again. After that I stopped making notations, played it to the end and then listened to Turkish Bath. Must admit I prefer the latter.

    I am not a musician and sometimes that becomes obvious. For example, there is another thread on the "Street" about Sinatra. I commented that there was only room for one "star" but David Leech picked on a trombone, on one track and a flute on another. As soon as he mentioned them I recalled them, but normally I would just lose them in the overall sound.

    So would I buy that Ellis recording, I don't think so. On the other hand it could just grow on me like the "Electric Bath" album did 30 years ago.

    Dino (aka Peter)
     
  13. Bluetrain

    Bluetrain Active Member

    Location:
    jacksonville, fl
    Peter, I'm not surprised that you didn't go for the whole of Strawberry Soup. Electric Bath, while innovative, is more toward traditional big band playing than the later Tears of Joy. As I said earlier, I see TOJ as being the culmination of Ellis's musical explorations. After, even his "best" albums didn't challenge boundaries like Tears of Joy did.

    I first started listening to music in the 1970s. Despite CTI commercial sounds, everything was under attack then. We spent as much, or more, time listening to those who were ripping up tradition as those who were maintaining it. Both felt very comfortable to me and my "jazz" buddies of that time.

    So, while I didn't expect you to go head over heals fro Strawberry Soup, I do admire that you were open-minded enough to give it a listen. Don's later stuff maybe more to your liking; there are still odd meters as on Electric Bath, and the string section is still there. But the Hodge-podge of Strawberry Soup is gone. You may find it more listenable.

    Here's a link to the videos from the 1977 performance that became the album "Live in Montruex." This is the show I saw live in Lincoln Center about 6 weeks before these videos were recorded. Listen to the first track "Open Wide" and let me know if you find this closer to what you liked about Electric Bath. But you should probably ignore the first few bars where the band "sings' "clack, clack, cliddly clack" because I when I first heard it I thought "Now Don. you've lost your mind." But it quickly settles down into a big band chart not much different than the stuff on Electric Bath. And for my money, watching a big band perform is almost always better than only hearing one on CD.

    And i'll take back what I said earlier; Don's trumpet solo on this tune is even probably better than the one on Strawberry Soup,

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fP86o86LPz0&list=PL4855947348BABF50
     
  14. Bluetrain

    Bluetrain Active Member

    Location:
    jacksonville, fl
    God, I just realized its been 38 years since I saw Don Ellis. Wow, I must be getting old. 8O
     
  15. Dinosaur

    Dinosaur Member

    Location:
    Western Australia
    Ken

    I listened to the first five tracks. Yes I liked "Open Wide" but felt with the following tracks that he was too experimental. That was all the rage however around 77.

    I agree with you that there is nothing to compare with being at a live big band performance. I started going to concerts and dances in the late 1940s early 1950s. This was in the U.K. where we had Ted Heath, Vic Lewis( who had a 20 piece big band) and played a lot of Kenton stuff. Because of a dispute in the musicians union, American bands could not play in England so Heath became my favourite. When they played concerts, you would get the comedy numbers lots of flim flam.
    By the time the ban was lifted around 1956 and Heath and Kenton did a swop, I was married and could not afford the luxury of concerts. Then I migrated to Perth in Western Australia, joined the local Jazz society and saw Gillespie, Basie, Art Pepper and lots more, live, then I started to grow old and going out at night was not on. Then I discovered the "Street", but I have to admit that musically I am stuck in a time warp!

    Dino
     
  16. Bluetrain

    Bluetrain Active Member

    Location:
    jacksonville, fl
    I think the same thing happens to most of us, at least I know it has to me. Most of us are most comfortable with the music we heard when we were young. What went on the 70s made me open to new directions in the music. So, through the 90s I was interested in musicians (from the Vienna Art Orchestra to Dave Douglas to Henry Threadgil) still pushing the envelop. Today, 15 years later. I don't care all that much. But I do still try to listen to the upcoming young players a bit, that's how I learned about Sean Jones (if we're talking about the same Sean Jones).
     
  17. Dinosaur

    Dinosaur Member

    Location:
    Western Australia
    Answers to BFT 107
    # 1 "Nice work if you can get it", Bud Powell, taken from a compilation album, Thanks to Luis for “nailing this one. I got it from a compilation album
    # 2 " I Don't give a Damn Blues" from "Im.pro.vise Never before seen." Sean Jones.(tpt) Orrin Evans (pno) Luques Curtis (bs) Obed Calvaire (dms)
    # 3 "Amsterdam after Dark" from "Treat me Gently" Dale Barlow (tnr) George Coleman (dms) Sam Anning (bs)
    # 4 "The Joker" from "Bumping on Sunday" Wes Montgomery ( no other info)
    # 5 “They can’t take that away from me†from “Never let me go†Stanley Turrentine (tnr), Shirley Scott (organ) Major Holley, Al Harewood, Ray Barreto.
    # 6 “Lady Macbeth†from “in a Mellow tone†John Dankworth Quintet. J.D Clarinet and sax) Mark Nightingale (tbone) Allan Ganley (dms) John Horler (pno)
    # 7 “Coming Home Baby†from “Giants of Jazz Groove†Richard Holmes, Woody Shaw, Pat Martino, Kenny Barron, Joao Donato, Grant Green, Eddie Davis
    # 8 “Calamus†from Clare Fischer Big Band album “Thesaurus†not sure of complete line up, but presume Bill Perkins (baritone sax)
    # 9 “Bags Grooveâ€(as if you didn’t know!) M.J.Q. with Sonny Rollins
    # 10 “Pastorale in C Minor†Jacques Loussier (Pno) Andre Arpino (dms) Vincent Charbonnier (bs)
    # 11 “Alone†from Don Ellis “Electric Bath†album. Don’t have complete line up
    #12 “If I had you†from “Just a bit O’ blues†Spike Robinson (tnr) “Sweets†Edison (tpt) Ross Tompkins (pno) Monty Budwig (bs) Paul Humphrey (dms)

    This BFT has been "up" since November ll .

    As today is January 30 I think it has been long enough for those who have answered to expect the answers I think the response to the last two BFTs make it questionable that it is worth carrying on with this feature. To those who did answer, thank you, I will go into more details about those answers over the weekend.

    Regards

    Dino.
     
  18. J. Robert Bragonier

    J. Robert Bragonier Maitre d' Forums Staff Member

    I just never got around to taking the time to comment on this one, Peter. Actually, I've spent much more time listening to avant garde classical music recently than to jazz...

    1) This is one of the three I totally recognized. The piano runs can only be Bud Powell, and the tune is "Nice Work If You Can Get It" by the Gershwins. This was recorded January 10, 1947 with Curly Russell and Max Roach, and I have it on The Bud Powell Trio Plays, Roulette CDP 7939022. The greats are always recognizable in the first few notes, and few were as great as Powell. Thanks for the reminder, Peter; I haven't heard this one for a long time.

    2) Everyone has loved this one, but no one knew what it was, I included. I need to check out this album; I really enjoyed this track.

    3) I had not a clue about this one, either, and I have to say, Dale Barlow is a totally new name to me.

    4) I recognize this as "The Joker," and it's obviously Wes Montgomery with strings. I have a lot of WM, but I was surprised to find that I don't have this one.

    5) Ditto this one; It's "They Can't Take That Away From Me," and I recognized Stanley Turrentine, but I was surprised I didn't have it, and I didn't recognize Shirley Scott.

    6) This was my jazz waltz (thank you very much!), but, as much as I enjoyed it, I hadn't a clue about its identity or musicians. Great find, Peter! Mark Nightingale is one of the great Brit 'bones, and I really liked Dankworth's soprano. I also really liked the bass solo; who was he?

    7) I recognized "Comin' Home, Baby" because of Mel Torme's vocal version (and I know it's by Ben Tucker and Bob Dorough), but I did not recognize any of these excellent musicians.

    8 ) Now, I should know Thesaurus like the back of my hand, but I totally did not tumble to this one. Shame on me; Clare Fischer was a dear friend of mine and one of my musical idols... This tune ("Calamus") was written by Clare's brother Stewart, and you're right: Bill Perkins play bari sax, and there is also a bass sax on the track, played by John Lowe.

    9) This is obviously "Bag's Groove" live, and vibes and piano are Jackson and Lewis, respectively, so it must be the Modern Jazz Quartet, but I do not have the album with Rollins, and I did not recognize him... RATS!

    10) This is another one I nailed; it is Bach's "Pastorale in C minor," from Telarc Jazz CD-83411, Jacques Loussier Plays Bach. As you probably remember, I have a particular liking for jazz/classical crossovers, so, again, a special thanks to you!

    11) Congratulations for your rhythmic adventurousness, Peter, for including this one! Hank Levy composed this one ("Alone") from Don Ellis' Electric Bath album (Columbia Legacy CK 65522); the lineup is Ruben Leon, Joe Roccisano, Ira Shulman, Ron Starr, John Magruder (reeds); Don Ellis, Glenn Stuart, Alan Weight, Ed Warren, Bob Harmon (t), Ron Myers, Dave Sanchez (tb), Terry Woodson (btb); Mike Lang (p, kb); Ray Neapolitan (b, sitar), Frank De La Rosa, Dave Parlato (b); Steve Bohannon (d), Chino Valdes (conga, bongos), Mark Stevens (timbales, vibes, perc), and Alan Estes (perc).

    12) The tune is "If I Had You," and this is a beautiful arrangement of it, but I don't recognize any of the musicians, although I should have suspected Sweets. Robinson has a lovely, Prez-influenced tenor sound, and Tompkins was as classy a pianist as I can imagine...

    This is a very enjoyable BFT, Peter; thanks a bunch for an excellent contribution!
     
  19. J. Robert Bragonier

    J. Robert Bragonier Maitre d' Forums Staff Member

    Just wanted you to know, Ken, that I just listened to Strawberry Soup, and I loved it, needless to say! Not having listened to as much jazz lately, there's a freshness and excitement in returning to it that I'm really enjoying!
     
  20. Dinosaur

    Dinosaur Member

    Location:
    Western Australia
    Thanks for your input Doctor Bob. Obviously when I typed my notes I omitted the fact that the bass player on # 6 Is Alec Dankworth, J.D's son. I think he must be the father of Emily Dankworth who I note appears on some of Alec Dankworth's albums. The family tradition continues

    Pleased that you enjoyed my effort Thanks to Ken it has expanded my boundaries a little.

    Dino
     
  21. J. Robert Bragonier

    J. Robert Bragonier Maitre d' Forums Staff Member

    Well, I'm pleased that Ken is stretching your ears a little; he's certainly done a lot of the same for me!

    Yes, I think this was a dandy BFT; I've already gone back to it oftener than usual. And, thanks for the info about Alec Dankworth; I really enjoyed his solo. Fascinating, isn't it, how some of these families are blessed with musical genes?
     
  22. Bluetrain

    Bluetrain Active Member

    Location:
    jacksonville, fl
    I play it only once, maybe, twice a year anymore. No matter what mood I'm in when it starts to play, by the end I'm grinning from ear to ear. :D
     
  23. Bluetrain

    Bluetrain Active Member

    Location:
    jacksonville, fl
    [/quote] I had to check my collection, but its the Vivaldi Four Seasons CD I have. I just turned down the volume on the Super game, I'm going to give to a listen for the first time on quite a few years.

    Thanks again, Peter, that was a fine BFT.
     
  24. Dinosaur

    Dinosaur Member

    Location:
    Western Australia
    Bob

    I am going to indulge in a little name dropping here. I have Dankworth relatives.

    The story goes, that during WW 1, my mother who had a very good voice, used to sing to the returned injured troops, accompanied by her friend Alice Houchin who was a very accomplished pianist. My mother's elder sister used to "go out" with one of the Dankworth brothers and both her and Alice would go out with the another brother. Alice won out and married her Dankworth as did my mother's sister. Alice became the mother of John and Avril, who was a very good singer and sung with various groups in the 50s.

    I used to tell my mother that if she had played her cards right, I could have been John Dankworth :D . Though to be truthful I suspect the "genes" we speak of, came from Alice.

    Such is life

    Dino

    PS. I knew a little of Avril through family discussions in my youth. Writing this prompted me to "google" her and it seems she lived a very full life, committed to music
     
  25. J. Robert Bragonier

    J. Robert Bragonier Maitre d' Forums Staff Member

    Great story, Peter! Sure; I'd be proud of those near-Dankworth genes if I were you, along with your "six degrees of separation...!"
     

Share This Page